Newsreel Asia's Anupama Chandrasekaran on building documentary stories in audio
Anupama Chandrasekaran is an audio documentary producer at Newsreel Asia, based in Chennai. She specialises in sound-rich, character-driven audio stories. Anupama has worked across newsrooms in Mumbai, New York, Hong Kong, and Chennai. We spoke about the opportunities behind audio stories and the challenges of building a documentary business -- and how her work is framed by her experience as an economics teacher.
Connect with Anupama on LinkedIn
Hosted by Rishad Patel and Alan Soon. Produced by Alan Soon.
The transcript
Rishad: Hey, this is Splice Pink. Pink is where we have quick conversations with people across the global media ecosystem from media startup founders, journalists, funders, to all the tech data design folks, and that includes podcasters, much like Anupama Chandrashekaran.
Alan: Anu is a podcast host and producer at Newsreel Asia, and she's based in Chennai in India. And so she got in touch, uh, literally today, I'm guessing, right, uh, on LinkedIn. And she said, I'm a documentary au audio documentary producer with reporting. Uh, recording, scripting, all of that stuff, uh, working all around the world, uh, producing great audio documentaries.
Alan: And I guess Rishad and I were just very curious about what this is all about. So, Anu uh, you are here with us and I'm really just fascinated by the work you do. Uh, in a nutshell, what is an audio documentary and how is that different from, say, a podcast?
Anupama: Yeah, an audio documentary basically tries to be very character driven.
Anupama: Uh, the idea being that when we try to talk about topical issues, right, whether it is women's health or uh, indigenous rights, you know, sometimes it just kind of goes over people's head when we are just using those terms and it doesn't really do anything to their heart. It really doesn't speak to their.
Anupama: You know, when you're talking about data, when we are talking about statistics, you know, it just kind. Hits your brain and you kind of learn about these things, but it really doesn't move you or make you think about things in an audio documentary. The way Newsreel is trying to do it is to make it character centric so that we look at broader issues, but from our micro perspective of a person who's telling you about that problem. So for instance, we recently did a series and you know, we have two more stories to produce out of it about Chandigarh and we are looking at, you know, The, uh, development goals that, you know, world over people look at for cities and things like that. And in this con, in this particular city of Chandigarh we looked at some of the lacs that affect people over there.
Anupama: So, for instance, domestic violence is really high in the city of Chandigarh or drug addiction is really high, but we are not talking about it just on a, in a topical way. So we actually spoke to somebody. , you know, was a drug addict and you know, spoke to his family and we recorded the conversation, taking us through some very specific incidents, which really kind of give you a taste of what actually it is to be a drug addict, you know? And similarly for the domestic violence story, um, I think both my colleague Shisha and I, we were so moved to hear the whole story of this person who was telling us about what she went through. Uh, despite being an educated lawyer, you know, who could have fought for herself very, very clearly.
Anupama: Uh, but all the details, you know, and half of the details we were really. We couldn't even listen to it because it was so tough to imagine, you know? But that's what an audio documentary is. It's being character driven. It's talking about specific people and what happened to their lives, but at the same time, looking at broader issues.
Anupama: So for instance, in the drug addiction story, we also talk about why is there so much drug addiction? in Punjab, you know, uh, because of the golden triangle, because of the, uh, supplies that come from elsewhere, you know, like Afghanistan and all these spaces are very closed geographically to, uh, to the state of Punjab and things like that.
Anupama: And so we are looking at reasons and broader statistics, but with specific stories and having a narrative arc. Basically, which, uh, which we don't try to make it out into a na narrative arc, but you know, coincidentally, everybody has a narrative arc, you know, which means that they go through life. It seems like everything is normal and hunky dory.
Anupama: And then, you know, something happens. So, yeah, so that's what an audio documentary is and that's what we are trying to do at Newsreel, which is, uh, tell stories about our world through.
Rishad: I love that description of the audio documentary. I noticed that, um, is the one that you're talking about called The Haze Lifts?
Rishad: Yes. Yeah. Right. And, and that's a 23 minute episode, or is it a series?
Anupama: That's a 23 minute episode. Yeah. And, uh, the one after that is called Love Gone Bad, uh, and it's part of the outvoted series where we are looking at, you know, , uh, specific states and places and talking about issues. So the previous version of Outvoted basically spoke about the Andaman Islands, and we looked at specific stories, like there was this one story of a Jarava tribe in the Andamans.
Anupama: Uh, one person who chose to, you know, who go, who was injured and he was hospitalized, and the Jaravas are basically, um, um, Oh, Negrito tribes. Um, so they are dark-skinned, they have curly hair, and they don't really come out and they're not, they don't try to be part of our urban civilization, so to say.
Anupama: Although I feel civilization is also a misnomer sometimes. Uh, but they choose to be in the forests and they, they don't wear clothes. Many of them don't wear clothes. You know, they're hunting, they're, they're hunter gathers, so they don't even farm. or, you know, cultivate, um, and that story of how a road was built through their forests, you know, and how it affected their lives.
Anupama: And, uh, while in India we keep talking about British colonialization, right? Um, here is a case where, you know, we are the colonialists, right? Uh, and we are kind of. We have taken over the rights of their land and we are deciding, well, a road has to be built here and it's going through their land. And they actually have, uh, you know, agency.
Anupama: They know what they want, but we, we, we make them out to be, you know, tribal people that. Probably in this case, you know, we feel that they are more uncivilized and they truly don't have a say in things. At least that's how the bureaucracy works.
Anupama: Some of the stories that they talk about, about particularly darkness, for instance, right? So there are stories, little, little stories about how when the jars, if they have to give birth to a child and they come to a hospital, they don't like the light bulbs in the room and they actually unscrew them and they take them off because they live in the forests and they believe that, that those kind of artificial lights kind of dims their sensitivity towards the darkness.
Anupama: And that was also one of the reasons why there were stories of the Jarava tribes, uh, breaking the street lamps on the road that went through their forest, because that was seen as an act of violence by, you know, the police and the people who were making the roads. But actually it was a very simple reason for it, you know, which is that these lights basically, Affect their ability to survive in the darkness in the jungles, and that's why they were breaking it.
Alan: But that's, it's amazing just, just listening to you tell this, you know, story makes me want to go check out, you know, your, your entire, um, showcase of, of, uh, of episodes. How do you come across. These types of stories. I mean, you know, there's obviously a lot of work that goes into it. Yeah. Um, I can't imagine you're doing this alone because this is a lot of work.
Alan: Um, how do you set this up and what kind of a team do you have?
Anupama: Uh, yeah. Uh, I have to admit that it's, it is quite difficult to find people to actually join you on this. You know, particularly because you are a starter and uh, you know, the pay is not probably that great. You know, the pay is like, will be a bare minimum.
Anupama: And the second thing is, of course, to just, just the whole process, like you said, to find the characters themselves and to find the story. It takes a lot of research. It's so much easier to do like a very broad based story on, you know, lives of indigenous people and talk to experts who are English speaking, you know, and do a story rather than actually find specific instances and incidents, which means you have to read a lot, you've got to talk to a lot of people over many weeks to actually find the story that fits.
Anupama: And then again, with that story that fits, you have to find. You know, the points, the, the plots in the story, which will actually, you know, take the listener very well through the journey of the story. Right. Makes sense to the listener as he listens and not confuse them. So yeah, we, I do have one more person, Shiksha Jural, who works with me and she's amazing.
Anupama: She is, um, Uh, she's, uh, you know, studied media and she's been working with us for more than eight to nine months now, so she's amazing. And, uh, of course we have a video team which does work related to video. So that team is separate and they are, you know, again, doing projects like mapping India where they're telling stories, character specific stories across India through the video medium. And Vishal is the person, and Harshita is the person who's, uh, in . So we are all together. , eight to 10 people. And the video team also helps us with ideation and tells us, you know, Hey, this idea makes sense or doesn't make sense. Uh, but yeah, finding stories is tough. And then of course it's, it's a new thing even for me, even though I've been a journalist for so many years, you know, I've been a wire service reporter, I've written for print.
Anupama: But researching and writing a story, uh, without a character centric, uh, approach is so much. Uh, and it is tough, but it is very fulfilling finally, to do this because you feel like the message has reached across. It really touches chords, you know? And I think that, yeah, that is like, uh, that's, that's the best part of, of telling these stories.
Anupama: But yeah, you're right Alan. It takes a lot of research to not just find the character you want, who will tell your story. So for instance, I'll give you another example, uh, as part of the on demand. I got a little tip off from a friend who focuses on the Andamans that you know, did you know that there is, uh, uh, there is this whole community of, uh, cyclists in the Nicobar Islands.
Anupama: So the Andaman and Nicobar Islands are like, uh, two large masses of islands with many small islands around them. Uh, and the Nicobar Island is actually closer to, and it's actually connected to the Indonesian land mass of islands. , you know, um, and they are more mongoloid in the way the people look in the Nicobar Islands.
Anupama: So this friend of mine told me that, uh, you know, there are these cyclists and they are, uh, international racing cyclists, and there's this huge crop of them coming from the, uh, Nicobar Islands. So that was the tip off right now. Then I had to find out who are these people and how many cyclists are there?
Anupama: And then I had to find that out andthen amidst that I found male and female cyclists, you know, and then I found there was one female cyclist who influenced a lot of these cycling bunch. You know, the people who came from Nicobar who wanted to cycle and become international cyclists. And then I had to find that one female cyclist's phone number.
Anupama: Uh, and connections in the Nicobar Islands are really bad, you know, the telephone connections. So talk to her. And she was very reticent. She was. Willing to open up. Uh, so it takes a lot, you know, to actually get the story and then talk to her several times to find out her life story and what she finds as important parts of her life.
Anupama: And then finally meeting her. in, in Andamans, you know, that was amazing. And the best part was, and this is what I feel, you know, uh, when you do a lot of homework and you've put in a lot of effort, sometimes luck just favors you. Can I
Rishad: just, sorry. Sure. Before you, before you go there. Sure. I just want to jump in.
Rishad: Uh, you know, I love this. I love, I love sitting and hanging out with you. Um, you spoke about the message getting across, you know, and that, that is huge validation for somebody in the storytelling story producing, story gathering business. Right? But I'm curious about that message. Um, and we've spoken about the message, but I'm so curious about your audience.
Rishad: Uh, tell me who your audiences are in that, you know, who are these people, like literally who are, who is your listeners? Where do they work. , why do they come to you?
Anupama: So, uh, for one of the series, so it differs from this, from story to story and the series that we do. So for instance, one of the one belief I do have is that podcasts can be used as an educational medium, you know, uh, and I certainly feel students and researchers and, um, academics can actually use it.
Anupama: A tool to reach, you know, varied learners, you know, diverse learners. So for instance, one of the series that we did was about the reintroduction of Chik into India. And after listening to that series, I got a message from a professor, uh, who's teaching at, uh, uh, a science institute in India saying that, can I use the series?
Anupama: to kind of, uh, teach my first year students, uh, about ecology because that whole series covered not just wildlife, it spoke about indigenous rights. It spoke about does this idea really make sense? So yeah. So the, that was, that really opened my eyes to like an audience because you know, like you've mentioned in many of your conversations that I found online that it is, it is a mass out.
Anupama: You know, and, uh, as an, uh, the internet, you know, there are, it's does you really have to target niche audiences, you know, and, uh, people may should be either compelled to listen to what you're saying or should be interested in what you're saying. So when I write about fossils or produce stories about fossils is just a genuine interest from a wide variety of listeners and, you know,
Anupama: But when it's very science specific and things like that, those things can actually be part of, you know, an educational curriculum. You know, and particularly for that series, I made it a multimedia series. So there were maps, there were timelines. Um, there were, uh, you know, people who'd get in touch with me, they wanted more information.
Anupama: You know, there were videos, there were photos. Um, yeah. So it could, somebody could actually just take that page and, you know, say, okay, today we are gonna learn about the reintroduction of. and have it all there and guys listen to the first episode and come back to class and you know, we can even have questions like the New York Times does it, you know, with your, um, education arm, right?
Anupama: So that I certainly feel. And then in terms of audience, the other thing related to niche audiences is we did a series about autism, you know, and, uh, , the idea never came to me. So the people from the community approached us and they said, would you be interested because we want to be our own advocates.
Anupama: You know, we want to tell our own story. Uh, so would you be interested in producing this for us? And it was a no-brainer because once we started interacting with them over Google meets, you know, and. like, although I know the term autism, I didn't really know what it means, how it really impacts these people.
Anupama: So that's how that story came about and that found its own niche audience with parents, you know, with parents who want to communicate to the school that, look, this is what autism means. They can also use the story and explain it to them. So, So, yeah, our audience has been diverse, but for me personally, I look at the education space as like a great space, you know?
Anupama: Uh, particularly because I've been a teacher and I also use podcasts to teach when I was teaching. Yeah.
Alan: And, and I wanted to, to hear a little bit more about that education space at the u that you've spoken, you know, a couple of times of, uh, uh, already you were an economics teacher for about eight years, and I think that.
Alan: Spectacular. Um, what, what have you taken from economics, from the School of EC economics into the work that you do now? You know, is there a lens that, that it provides you that you wouldn't otherwise have had?
Anupama: Oh, one or two things. One is of course the pod. That was one of the reasons I got into podcasts because I love this podcast called Planet.
Anupama: And I thought, you know, the way they spoke, the way they explained things, and also just the interdisciplinary aspect of it. You know, they would do all these things like they would buy gold and they would like explain what happened to the prize of gold. You know, and also the, a lot of the live recording that they did, like, I think they were talking about your Eurozone crisis, and they were actually at a party where they were discussing things about the Eurozone or announcement.
Anupama: So economics, Basically reminded me. Teaching economics reminded me that things are interdisciplinary. You can't really say, well, when I talk about autism, I can't just talk about autism. It's also about jobs. For these people because one of the subjects, uh, that we spoke to is actually gonna collaborate with us on another project because he's very good at languages.
Anupama: You know, he's very good at South Indian languages. And we are actually in the process of doing stories with community radio stations in India starting January. Uh, and I know some South Indian languages, but he doesn't know. So, uh, but he does, so he's gonna help us. So it's. Understanding that any topic is not by itself, but it has a lot of other connections with environment, with, um, with economics, with, uh, the, you know, just the moral and ethical aspects of things.
Anupama: So, and that's how I actually taught economics too, because I had my own syllabus when I taught the kids. I didn't use the textbook. And if you looked at oil markets, for instance, I would go from you. , what was the history of oil? You know, how did this come about? How did the Middle East become so important?
Anupama: You know, uh, or if you spoke about the Bitcoin, who was this person? Why was it started? You know, what are libertarian, you know, philosophies and things like that. So yeah, it's taught me that things are interlinked and that is what, that's how we can make things interesting for the listener by interlinking.
Rishad: You talking about money, uh, leads me to ask how does Newsreel Asia make their money?
Anupama: Well, we are not making money yet, but we know how we fund it. So our, uh, editor Al actually, uh, does a lot of projects for other organizations, whether it's video production or I haven't gotten into audio production.
Anupama: because, uh, I, I, I still need a crop. I need a crew, which helps me with that. So those are possible, uh, ways in which we get funding. Uh, the other thing we found is we recently got funding actually from the, um, Rohini Nilekani Philanthropies, uh, for our community radio project. And one of the main things, uh, which I think also syncs with what you and Alan talk about is that, are we giving back to the community what we are taking from them?
Anupama: So that was one of the reasons why. This philanthropy decided to fund our project, uh, was because the community radio was going to help us produce specific character centric stories, and then they could also use it on air on their channels. You know, so we weren't gonna be, You know, having the copyright for it, they would also get to use it.
Anupama: Uh, they would get to translate. I would share the entire tracks. I will be sharing the entire tracks with them the way I have laid it out, and they can take out my narration and put in their language, narration into it and publish it. Uh, and, uh, so, so we got funding from the Rohini Nilekani Foundation for this, philanthropies for this.
Anupama: And, uh, yeah, but largely through Vishal's efforts, uh, of, you know, doing projects elsewhere with other NGOs. Um, and yeah, we're hopeful we'll get some other funding too. Uh, but the making the money part of it, you know, we've not had the bandwidth. So the other problem is, you know, you're producing content and then you have to also think.
Anupama: Other ways of making money. So one thing, like I mentioned earlier, related to education, I really think that this cur curriculum can be sold, you know, and it doesn't have to be big amounts. So for instance, uh, if you're talking about, well, if you wanna teach your children about autism, well here are four stories that you can listen to, right?
Anupama: you know, 200 rupees, right. It's really not, it's not much. And I really feel that could be one way of funding, uh, a project. But yeah, we have to have the bandwidth to, uh, sit down and think about all this. So that becomes a bit of a problem, you know, figuring out the editorial part of it and the business side of it.
Anupama: Yeah. But hopefully we'll get there..
Alan: Yeah. And, and it also seems like, um, India has become this huge market for, for podcasters. There's so many podcasts coming out of India right now. Uh, we've met so many great ones at, uh, at, at Splice Beta recently as well. Um, is, is this space becoming competitive for you are, you know, is there a com, is there a competition when it comes to, uh, you know, uh, monetization, getting money from grants, getting money from foundations?
Alan: Uh, is that becoming increasingly difficult for you?
Anupama: I don't know, uh, because, uh, we've just started applying for funding. See, the other thing is also we wanna make sure we are good before we approach anyone for funding, you know? And now we are in that space where we feel confident that we have this content that we have generated.
Anupama: And on these different categories, and we are improving our work. Uh, and now we feel confident. So I'll know, I'll have an answer to this question in the coming months because we've, you know, one of the problems I also see in this space is that people, uh, are very good at promoting themselves and then you listen to the content and it's not as good, you know, uh, or it's because I'm also a very, very ardent podcast listener.
Anupama: I do prefer the documentary format. I do want the sounds of the street. Uh, I do want, uh, you saying hi when you are meeting your subject. You know, I do want that laughter. I do want the clinking of the teac cups if you're drinking tea. Uh, and a lot of them are chatter casts. So yeah, I, I, I'm hoping that if we carve a niche for ourselves and also may be meaningful, right, with the stories that we do, we will.
Anupama: I will figure out whether there's competition out there because we really haven't approached too many funders yet, you know, because we've really been in the process of generating content with a very small team. Like I said, it's, you know, uh, there's only two people on the podcast's team and, uh, we do everything we do.
Anupama: Ideation reporting, you know, and I'm post producing it. And I, and I think that's okay. You should know everything before you get picker. Um, but, uh, I don't know about the competition. Uh, but I do see that I, I really wish it was a more, hmm. It was more of a space which was, you know, more conversational and, and like, I see that in the, uh, public radio space in the us, you know?
Anupama: Um, I wish it was more like, well, let's collaborate a lot more, and things like that. That hasn't happened yet. I, I, I'm definitely more interested in that, more than, you know, the funding bit, which. Hopefully come. If you do, if you're doing the right things, I think it'll come and the story will make sense because we don't wanna create a story, you know what I mean?
Anupama: Like, I don't wanna like create a story saying that we are, you know, we are having impact, we wanna do this. Uh, I wanna really make sure I'm having impact.
Rishad: One of the best ways to, uh, we found to measure impact actually, or perhaps the only way to measure impact is. , ask the audience, you know, uh, or prototype a show that you're planning to do, and then find an audience that, that, uh, you think would be interested or, you know, ask them what they like, what they don't like, what you should be doing more of, what they should be doing less of.
Rishad: We've, we've, which, which is always a fantastic way of, I guess, you know, measuring the effect that you have on, you know, there is after all a user out there that you're producing this. You know, whether it's somebody who's being able to change policy. At the government level or somebody, he, but you know, that's, that's the journey we're all on, you know, in, in media.
Rishad: So that was Anupama Chandrasekharan from Newsreel Asia, and that's a wrap for this episode of Spice Pink. If you like our conversations with people across the media ecosystem and want more of them, Please subscribe to this thing. Better yet, share it with someone and get in touch. We're on splicemedia.com.